After learning that Syren was going to stop selling rope for general use, I decided to buy a Syren Rope Rocket to make my own. There are still some places to buy excellent rope : I have heard that Ropes of Scale is great (https://ropesofscale.com) and I understand that there is a recommended supplier in Europe (https://www.takelgarne.de/). But many of us are taking the plunge to make our own rope. I have not yet put together my Rope Rocket, let alone try to use it.

The Syren page has some excellent videos and instructions for using the Rope Rocket:

https://syrenshipmodelcompany.com/ropewalk.php

The instructions for assembling the Rope Rocket also includes "Chuck Passaro’s Recipe Using MARA For Rope Sizes He Offers".

I hope that others can share their experiences using the Rope Rocket and that @Chuck can share his wisdom.

Some questions any novice rope rocketer - like me - are going to have are:

What brand if thread to buy / Where to buy thread?
Gutermann seems to be the kind of thread used by both Syren and RoS for their rope. I do not know if there are other brands that are recommended. One place (in the US) to buy Gutermann thread is https://www.wawak.com/. I also saw that Ropes of Scale sells Gutermann threads: https://ropesofscale.com/products/gutermann-e382-thread. Ropes of Scale also seems to sell a more limited set of thread thicknesses and colors than Wawak does - presumably corresponding to what they use on the ropes they sell - naturally since they area a model ship site not a thread site. Someone recommended in the UK that William Gee sells Gutermann thread.

What kind of Gutermann thread to buy?
Mara seems to be the product line recommended by @Chuck and others. E-thread is apparently another Gutermann product line that is not recommended.

What size thickness of Gutermann Mara thread?
Mara 120, 100, 70, and 30 thicknesses were used in the recipes from @Chuck (with larger numbers designating smaller thicknesses). Mara 220 could also be used to make very thin (.1mm) rope or possibly (?) for seizings. It seems like on web pages selling Gutermann Mara thread you need to first select the thickness and then on that page you can select the color.

What color of Gutermann Mara thread?
Color seems to be designated by another number. From what I understand, Syren sold rope using color #263 (light beige) and #682 (dark brown). @Chuck said he prefers a bit darker #850 to the #263 he sold at Syren.

How to store rope?
Some recommend storing rope on a bobbin. @Chuck recommended just storing rope in ziplock bags to avoid kinds and curves setting in. He does recommend in his rope recipe wrapping the wrote around something like a metal garage pully when putting it in over to cure but after that storing finished rope in a ziplock to lay naturally.

Would love to see more discussion on (1) using the Rope Rocket, (2) rope making recipes, and (3) what kind of threads to buy (brands, sources, sizes, and colors). I imagine placing an order for Gutermann Mara thread will likely mean buying enough thread for the lifetimes of multiple modelers.

I hope @Chuck can post his rope making recipes.

Thanks for posting this. You have included a lot of valuable information in your post. I have attached a copy of Chuck's rope recipes below:

Chuck Passaro's Rope Recipe.pdf

Thanks! Having a Rope Rocket on it's way from across the ocean...this topic will certainly help 👌

I was going to start a step by step tutorial topic with photos to go along with the videos on my site. ❤️ And no center travelling wizameebob is needed for the Rope Rocket. It starts laying up in the center of the span just fine as long as you start twisting the strands together by hand with a few quick turns before turning on the turbo power, LOL

First is about sizes of thread: My understanding is that Mara and Tex are two different ways of measuring the thickness. In the Syren instructions, recipes for various sizes of rope use : Mara 30, 70, 100, and 120. I see on the wawak site that they clearly label sizes in mara. But then the RoS site lists Gutermann sizes as E121, E151, E382, noting that these correspond to tex sizes 12, 15, and 38 respectively. I'm guessing that Syren and RoS use different formulas. It seems mara 30 corresponds to tex 100, mara 70 to tex 40. I have no ideal what the trailing "1" is in something like E121, and how that differs from the trailing "2" in something like E382.

E-thread is NOT MARA...its an entirely different series of Gutermann thread. E-thread....It is in my opinion...just a tad more crisp than MARA but also much more slick as its a different plastic. It comes in a much more limited color range than MARA as well. It is also more shiny. To me it just looks too much like plastic and is crazy shiny when the rope is made. Mara is way less shiny, and can be baked in less time than E-thread. Mara threads have a more natural almost cotton look to it, although it could be a bit fizzier...but really almost no fuzz. The e-thread is literall like plastic with no fuzz. It always looked too fake to me so I always stick with Mara or even Skala threads.

Although those were the color I used (263 and 682) for my Ultra rope, my personal preference is to go a tad darker and deeper with the tan...My personal favorite of mara is #850 and shown below. and on deck in comparison to the ultra 263 which is the lighter one. I just prefer a slightly darker rope myself. Yes the MARA number is just to indicate size specific to MARA...it is not a tex size. BUT it will correspond with my recipe card that has been posted if you are also using MARA threads.

Second is about colors: Gutermann comes in a ton of colors. wawak sells a ton of them, RoS only black (000), tan (186), dark brown (696), and light beige (722). What colors of Gutermann threads correspond to the dark and light shapes used by Syren? I know I saw this posted in v2 but never made note of it in my "how to make rope" document before the crash. I'd like to be able to (try to) make my own thread that matches the thread I have from Syren in size and color. I assume that RoS will match in size and color what RoS sells. But I imagine the Syren has different formulae for their sizes and colors from RoS, if subtle.

AGAIN...The E-thread is a sep line of Gutermann thread made from different polyester plastic compounds than MARA thread. There are many more colors available....And yes the colors 263 and 682 will match my rope...

Third is about how to store made thread. The Syren recipe recommends storing rope on a garage pulley - I assume something like this one (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Clopay-3-in-Extension-Spring-Pulley-0120600/312648178)? It seems that the pulley and rope can be baked in an oven (regular oven or toaster oven) at 275-300 degrees F for 3-4 minutes. What would I want to use to store thread that I've made? Right now I just have them in the small plastic packages that I bought from Syren at 30' a piece. I assume when making my own thread I would store on a spool or something (maybe putting the spool in a ziplock bag). Any suggestions on spools (links would be great)?

I always store loosely coiled in a zip bag....Now that I am not selling rope anymore...the coils will be larger and the bags larger. I will never spools of any kind. It will make the memory of the smaller wraps around the bobbing stay forever although you could just re-bake and hope for the best. Wrapping around cards like I see so many people doing....just awful awful practice. The kinks will never go away. You want these ropes to hang as natural as possible....For me...NO BOBBINS EVER. Just loose coils like you see on deck above. Larger even if possible and stored in a box.

Chuck

E-thread only comes in a few sizes and they are all very small threads. This is very different than Mara threads which in addition to more colors offered, comes in more larger sizes. This is different still than compared with the Skala line of Gutermann thread. You guys should experiment with all of these lines of gutermann thread as well as any others you can find. You will see differences in all of them.

So lets talk about using larger sizes of threads to make rope vs using multiple passes on each strand of really thin thread like E-thread. This is mostly applicable to making larger ropes but the E-thread is so small in diameter that you will have to place many threads running back and forth for each strand on even smaller ropes. You need to do this to achieve the size rope you need.

Now which is better or is there a difference at all in the finished rope. It all depends on how anal you are about it. Aside from the differences in sheen and stretchabilty and maybe strength with Mara vs Skala vs. E-threads...not applicable to this discussion, You should experiment with using multiple smaller threads for each strand or a larger thread and decide for yourself which is better.

For example, if I am making .025 rope using mara threads...

You need one pass of mara 50 on each hook to make a 3 stranded .025 rope. Typically seen as 1 x 3 Mara 50 on recipe charts.

For E-thread I dont know the exact recipe....but it could be something like 12 x 3 of E121 threads.

If you wanted to stick with Mara thred then you could switch to the thinner mara 120 size and use 5 x 3 Mara 120

All of these recipes will make the same .025 rope but have a slightly differnt look.

To make the same .025 rope using E-threads would require many more threads on each of the 3 strands. Or the same if you prefer using Mara threads but like the look of the finished rope better using multiple smaller threads on each strand. I hope that makes sense.

Personally I prefer the look of finished rope using more runs of smaller threads on each hook or strand. It just has a better scale look. BUT, this is not what I did for ULTRA rope because it takes forever to do. Packages of 30 foot rope needed to be made super quickly to keep up with the crazy demand. But now that I am making rope only for myself, I will do just that. I only used multiple threads on each strand for my larger Ultra ropes and not something like .025 rope when I made my Ultra rope.

The trade-off: Having said all of this....using multiple passes for each strand using smaller diameter thread is more difficult than using just one. This is more true if you are just a beginner. Especially when you get to the larger ropes which can use up to 20 or more passes on each strand. This is I believe how Ben makes all of his rope (you kind of have no choice when using E-thread) and he should be commended for it. It looks great but it is more difficult to do and more time-consuming. If some of those many threads on a strand have a different tension or get twisted funny before you actually start making the rope, the results can be very bad. Dont get me wrong...its not a monumentally difficult task at all....but it will take more practice and experience to fine tune and gets more difficult to master the longer your ropes are. For shorter lengths it is negligible.

But yes there is a visible difference in the finished rope depending on which size original thread you choose and how many passes of that thread are in each strand.

The only way you will be able to find out which material and which size of thread and 3 or 4 strands used to make the same size rope.....Which looks best to you? The only way to find out is to experiment with them all and develop your own recipe.

Its like an apple pie contest and you are the judge. You may have to taste 25 pies. They are the same being Apple pie, but each of those bakers had different recipes to make the same thing, and they all look and taste just a little bit different. OK I have tasted some really bad Apple pies in my day.

Here is my rope recipe by the way for making Rope using Gutermann Mara threads..

TPS - threads per strand.

S - Number of strands ....or hooks on the ropewalk.

.008 rope......mara 220.......1 TPS x 3S very tightly laid up

.012 rope......mara 120.......1 TPS x 3S very tightly laid up

.018 rope......mara 70.......1 TPS x 3S

.025 rope......mara 50.........1 TPS x 3S

.030 rope ......Mara 30 ......1 TPS x 3S

.035 rope......mara 30.........1 TPS x 4S

.045 rope......mara 70.........3 TPS x 4S

.055 rope......mara 70.........4 TPS x 4S

.065 rope......mara 30.........3 TPS x 4S

.080 rope......mara 30.........4 TPS x 4S

.095 rope......mara 30.........5 TPS x 4S

.107 rope......mara 30.........7 TPS x 4S

To make a 30 foot rope start with the head and tail stock 42 feet apart. This is what I do when making rope. The head stock walking distance when spinning the strands independently varies based on the sizes made above. If you are making shorter lengths which is probably the case you will need to experiment to find that magic travelling distance for each diameter of rope.

I’m going to summarise things I’ve said before about my Syren Rope Rocket experiences- most of which I’ve added in my Indefatigable build log.

The main point is: it’s really easy. The design is genius-level, it’s so simple.

The other main point: it’s FUN. You can watch rope appear before your eyes.

I had no idea what I was doing, but I assembled my rope rocket on the dining room table, followed the instruction video and had lovely rope in a few minutes- first time.

For most of us, making 30 foot pieces might not be practical. But it only takes a few minutes to knock a piece of rope out on a 6’ dining table. (I’ve now got a system where I clamp a floorboard to each end of the dining table, so that I have a 14’ rope-making station now, which can be easily disassembled.)

To answer some of the questions posted by @palmerit :

Threads. Gutermann Mara. You can make many sizes of rope even if you just buy one reel of Mara 100. Add in Mara 220 for fine ropes and Mara 30 for thick ropes and that’s all you need. Or you could just do more TRS (Threads Per Strand) and not even need the Mara 30.

Colours: there’s so many colours, but many people go for 696 for dark brown, then maybe 263 or 265 for light rope (I use 265). Bear in mind that when we make rope and examine it against a piece of white paper, it will look way darker than when we’ve added it to our decks.

With this in mind, I tend towards what @Chuck was saying about making darker ropes, eg 453. Another popular colour for a more grey-brown is 854

Below is the same 265 colour rope on deck, in two sizes, compared to 263 (centre)

On a long-lost MSW thread, there were photos of real-life ropes in many shades of grey and brown on a ship, and different shades might be more authentic, although visually quite messy.

Where I went wrong was overthinking it (as usual.) If I went back in time, I’d tell myself to just buy some Mara threads, 682 and 263, and play around with the rope rocket. Then maybe buy more colours.

Storing it: I just wrap mine in a bit of baking paper and pop it in our oven at 180C for 10 minutes. For me, this is just right- it doesn’t melt. Then, when I cut an end, it doesn’t fray.

But this is for me, in my oven. There’s a delicate balance here between melting it and stopping the ends from fraying. It's worth experimenting, increasing the temperature until we can cut the end and it doesn't fray.

Then I just wrap it round a plastic cotton reel and label it for storage.

Following up on Chuck’s comment on whether to use a fatter Mara thread and fewer threads per strand, or thinner Mara thread with more threads per strand, my feeling is thats the latter ends up looking better... it's less coarse. There’s not much in it. Maybe I’m overthinking it.

But more than anything, I’d say that if anyone can do rigging, they can definitely make their own rope, it’s easy, very rewarding, and did I mention... FUN?

Does anyone happen to know of a European shop that carries all sizes and colors of Gütermann? It is German, but it turns out to be quite difficult to find a shop that has all colors and thicknesses and where you don't have to order in batches of 10 rolls.

Hi Ronald

Not sure if you want "European Union" or wider Europe but I get all mine from William Gee (https://www.williamgee.co.uk/) in the UK. They sell a lot of the Gutermann thread, Skala, Mara etc in a wide range in colours.

Mark

21 minutes ago, All Mod Cons said:

Hi Ronald

Not sure if you want "European Union" or wider Europe but I get all mine from William Gee (https://www.williamgee.co.uk/) in the UK. They sell a lot of the Gutermann thread, Skala, Mara etc in a wide range in colours.

Mark

I did indeed read that in the opening post. I want to check first if it is available in the European Union so that I don't have to pay import duties... if that is not the case, I will have to turn to, for example, yours. I will take a closer look at it. Maybe it won't be too bad for these small amounts.

I do like the fact they have everything! It's more stressfree to shop Haha. Maybe that's also worth something 😛

I use rito.dk, they have the colours I need. But I don't know their EU shipping cost.

Here's a link to the E121 thread:

https://rito.dk/3413-gutermann-sytrad-ekstra-staerk-100m

Let me know if you need help with the Danish 😅

Thank you guys. Silly me...I tried to find a shop where I could buy everything at once, all sizes and colors, etc. But because there are so many colors... it is important to find the right colors first. I don't need all sizes for that yet, so I found a German shop that did have a wide range of Mara 120 in stock.

https://www.naehmit.de/

I have now ordered a few shades from there that appear in this topic, all in that size. My goal is to start playing/experimenting a bit with the "Rope Rocket". Then, later, I can gather all the sizes I need in the right color at a good shop. That is why I am still happy with all the suggestions coming in, possibly for others looking for something in Europe as well. 🙂

Starting with Mara 120, I wonder how many different sized ropes you can make? As above, I found that multiple strands of a thinner thread (M100, 3 TPS x 4) gave nicer results than fewer strands of a thicker thread (M30, 1 TPS x 4).

With Mara 120, the only size you won't be able to do is 0.1mm, which I make out of Mara 220.

With 120, you can get 0.2mm up to at least 1mm with multiple TPS.

Another thing I found- when I did some carronade rigging last week- was that all these slightly different shades look very similar once "on deck".

I used 265 for the breeching ropes on the main gun deck, then started using some 453 for carronade breeching ropes (pictures in a forthcoming Indy update), and I honestly can't tell the difference now.

It's all too easy to become obsessed with these details (at least, it is for me), but actually- it doesn't make that much difference in practice.

10 hours ago, Mowzer said:

It's all too easy to become obsessed with these details (at least, it is for me), but actually- it doesn't make that much difference in practice.

Recognizable🤔😆 It is so often about taking a step back... pausing and realizing that it doesn't have to be so difficult.

I think I ordered a spool of MARA 30 along with it... just to see how thick it is, etc. Good to hear that I can already do quite a lot with 120. 👍

I bought several thicknesses of MARA thread. I use a spreadsheet to keep track and found out you can actually dial in 1/10 of millimeter with different thickness and number of strands. It was really helpful to get the right rope for the gun carriage blocks.

I just put in an order for Mara 120 in tan and Mara 100 in several shades of tan and brown. I'm thinking I'll build any thicker rope out of multiple strands of either of those. I have some small spools of Mara 50 I got years ago. So I will experiment with those as well. And I have various linen threads I picked up over the years, and a big selection of fly tying thread I may just experiment with as well, although those seem far too slick and shiney to me, so I'm skeptical about them.

I dug around last evening in my hobby drawers and found most of the gears and parts I need to make a version of Chuck's ropewalk, and ordered the rest of what I need (one more gear and some set screw collars). I know he's planning to offer plans for his for free at some point, but since he's not selling them presently, and I'm itching to try it out, I'll try to put something together over the next day or so to give it a go. I ordered his serving tool while he had some in stock. So, I'll give that a try as well.

I'm needing some .004" / .1mm rope for a current project. WAWAK didn't have the colors I need in MARA 220, so I ordered some "Gutermann U-81 Skala 360 Polyester Multifilament Fine Blind Hemming Thread - Tex 8" to serve my purpose, 'hopefully'. I guess I'll be using my jeweler's magnifying lenses while twisting up this .1mm stuff! Fingers are crossed! 🤔

17 minutes ago, TMJ said:

I'm needing some .004" / .1mm rope for a current project.

I can't comment on the skala thread, but I was making my 0.1mm rope with 1TPS x 3 using Mara 220. I was amazed by how different the rope looked, even to the naked eye, compared to normal threads out of the kit boxes.

But yup, I need my magnifying glasses for my old man eyes out to check whether it's laid up properly.

19 minutes ago, Mowzer said:

I can't comment on the skala thread, but I was making my 0.1mm rope with 1TPS x 3 using Mara 220

That's nice to know, Gareth! I purchased the smaller thread based upon the thread sizes that Chuck recommends for 'his' recipes. 120 for .012" rope, 220 for .008" rope... so I figured I'd need Mara '320', or something similar for a rope half the size of the .008" using 220 Mara. Skala was the only thing available in the '3-something' category. Oh well. More thread to play with!

In case anyone is curious as to why I would want .1mm rope... it's for 'seizings' @ 1:64 scale. That would be about 6mm at 'full' scale. 🙂